Yahoo Lifestyle ‘Fallout’: Jonathan Nolan In Conversation With Aaron Moten On Bringing The Video Game To Life
Among the many challenges that Jonathan Nolan faced when adapting Bethesda’s popular Fallout video game into a television series were narrowing the massive scope of the story — and finding the perfect people to tell it through.
Unlike other video games that have gotten a live-action adaptation, Fallout is a role playing game that requires the player to make choices that may alter the course of the story. It was creators and showrunners Graham Wagner and Geneva Robertson-Dworet who decided on an ensemble, that way every viewer could see themselves in someone on screen.
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Enter Ella Purnell as the goodie-two-shoes vault dweller Lucy MacLean, Aaron Moten as the morally ambiguous Maximus, and Walton Goggins as the chaotic evil Ghoul. While all three of these actors faced challenges, Moten faced the especially tedious task of always toeing a line between the angel and the devil on his shoulders.
“Aaron had this incredible quality of both being very emotionally knowable to the audience — that amazing gift to be able to transmit emotion to you — but also this unknowable quality to you,” Nolan tells Deadline. “It is very hard to have both these things happening at the same time. There is a technical dexterity there that is really, really challenging.”
Nolan and Moten sat down with Deadline to have a conversation about all things Fallout, from casting Moten as Maximus to building out practical sets wherever possible. The pair also swap on-set stories, and Moten shares behind-the-scenes photos with Deadline that he shot while filming the series.
Read the entire interview below.
DEADLINE: Jonathan, you’ve spoken about how important it was for Fallout sets to be largely practical. Why was that a priority? And Aaron, how did that enhance your experience as an actor?
JONATHAN NOLAN: I don’t really know any other way to do it. My earliest memories are of trying to get in on the action of my brother making stop motion movies in our house in Evanston, Illinois. We have the best vis-effects team in the business. They’re amazing. Jay Worth is our VFX supervisor, [and he’s] incredible. But my brother explained this at one point last year…sort of explaining, articulating why we do this this way. And he said it in a way that I’ve been struggling to say it for years and finally landed for me, which is that computer graphics, excellent VFX, can kind of trick your mind, but they can’t really trick your heart. You don’t have the emotional reaction to these things, even if you ask someone on a conscious level, like, is that CG? Is that practical? They might not be able to tell in every shot, but on an experiential level, they don’t have the same emotional reaction to it that they do if you’ve managed to make it work [practically].
With this project, in particular, it felt all the more important, because you’re talking about adapting video games, you’re talking about adapting computer graphics…and we’re losing so many things in the adaptation. You’re losing the freedom that you have in the games, you’re losing all of the open qualities that a role playing game has. So what are you offering in exchange? One of the things you’re offering in exchange is that incredible experience of one human actor stepping into a role and the bond that you form with that person taking on that persona. But we’re also offering reality. We’re trying to say, ‘This is what the world of Fallout would look like if it was real, if it was photographable.’ So it felt all the more important to us to drag ourselves down to Namibia, to drag ourselves out to Utah, to build power armor for real. It felt like a validation of all the production techniques I’ve learned growing up, but all the more important with this one because of the nature of what we were adapting.
DEADLINE: Right, not just with big set pieces, but also practical props — like the power armor, the Pip-Boys. Aaron, did that also impact your performance, to have those things in front of you?
AARON MOTEN: [Production designer] Howard Cummings and his team are jumping out to me right now. Often, I think, as an actor, you feel like you aren’t collaborating with a scenic design team in the way that it felt like a real collaboration to me, because it was the thing allowing me to lose a lot of the anxiety stepping into a project with such a large IP, something that’s really cared about and has a whole community of followers behind. It felt like…this is just the playground that you get to play on today. It became the thing often that was launching us into the material. The springboard, if you will. Whether that was the practical suit — people really part out of your way when you’re carrying this kind of heavy gear — or, yeah, the working Pip-Boys. I didn’t know Howard was who he was, because he was just finding stuff in parking lots and dragging like broken metal scraps onto the set.
NOLAN: We started working with Howard on the second season of Westworld, because he had done The Knick with Steven Soderbergh, and The Knick, like a film that I had worked on with Chris [Nolan] called The Prestige, they victorianized their city…by putting dirt all over the street. We did it on the Universal backlot, the old New York stages, before they burned down. And I knew they burned down, so I said to Howard, I was like, ‘How on earth are you doing this?’ And he said, Well, we shoot in Brooklyn on location, and I have 20 guys, and we have piles of dirt, and we put it onto the street, and then at lunch, we put it off. And then at the end, I was like, ‘Oh, I’m working with this dude.’ Howard is brilliant, but also he’s the guy with a shovel there, who’s putting dirt on the ground. We’ve been lucky, very lucky, to be able to work with some incredibly talented artisans on our show who take this hands-on approach. I think the sets that we made for Fallout are the most beautiful sets I’ve ever seen.
I’d shot in New York before on my first show. Loved shooting there, loved the crews, but they hadn’t had a chance to build something of that scale there, and it was extraordinary to see what they’d done. I also think that part of it for us is, I think there’s almost a sort of perverse badge of pride for some actors [that] they can do it on a green screen with a someone in a green leotard. It’s acting, right? I’m not an actor, but intuitively feels to me like the more I can do — and I observe this on Chris’s sets as well — the more that I can do as a director to create a reality for Aaron, Ella, Walton, the rest of our incredible cast, to inhabit, the more it frees you up, I mean, tell me if this is right, to be emotionally present, concentrate on the sh*t that matters instead of having to build [worlds]. When Ella walks out of that vault, I kind of kept her in the van. We were in Elizabeth Bay in the Skeleton Coast in Namibia, and that shot was a drone shot of her walking into the distance. Really, the only thing we added to that shot is the ferris wheel and the Santa Monica mountain mountains in the distant background. The shot is almost entirely practical. It’s one of the most stunning, beautiful, weird places I’ve ever been in my life. So that all on her face is real. She’s freed up. Hopefully it allows you guys to reach for another level, on that emotional level, because we kind of supplied the reality. It feels almost like a childish way to do it, right? It certainly feels like the long way around. But it does feel like it yields the best results, if you can make it work.
MOTEN: There’s always this moment for actors, I think, those that work in the theater, that you have to define what is on the fourth wall. It’s between the audience and the stage, but it’s always totally open, because obviously we have to see what’s happening…you have to kind of do it as a group. It’s like one person can’t think there’s a mirror there, and the other person thinks there’s a wall.
NOLAN: I’ve never thought of that with the stage.
MOTEN: It’s extremely important. Until that happens, sometimes you don’t feel free in the space to play, because you don’t know where you are. But, yeah, fully building things out really gives us the ability, I think, as actors, to let our imaginations work with what we need to be working with. We don’t have to make something real that is real. So we get to imagine where it came from, how long we’ve had it, etc.
NOLAN: Our first day, we didn’t get a chance to talk about it, our first day of working together was on The Volume. The Volume was a tool that we had tried to build for the first season of Westworld. That was a difficult season to pull together, so we sort of stopped, pressed pause. John Favreau and his team went ahead and invented the technique, and then John was very generous with us, and we used his team on Westworld. But then his team came to New York with us, incredible team at Magnopus and Fuse and some of our other vendors who, along with Manhattan Beach Studios, built a volume for us on the East Coast. There wasn’t a big enough one. They built it to our exact specifications. That’s where Aaron and I worked for the first time together. Our concern with the volume was that, in certain productions, it becomes the tail wagging the dog. So now you have to shoot everything to amortize the cost of it.
Amazon was supportive of our approach. We’d use it for what it was good for, which for me, is replacing blue screen. Anything you would use blue screen, for the most part, we try to use The Volume for. You showed up on set. I was like, ‘Okay, here you go.’ There’s a shot where Aaron’s character has to throw the absurdly oversized gun bag into the Vertibird and then jump on and the idea was that Knight Titus is so unconcerned with your well being as you’re scrambling which I guess, in this metaphor, I might be Knight Titus. It’s like, ‘Okay, welcome to our set. I don’t know if we have a harness on. You need to jump into this thing.’ We had built the thing on a giant box, but there’s a guy with a joystick moving the whole thing. It was pretty rad, but it was definitely it at the deep end. But did The Volume help you in terms, or is that a distraction? It helps me.
MOTEN: It helps immensely, especially, I mean, when you think about it, a lot of that was drone, helicopter camera footage.
NOLAN: It was footage that we shot six months beforehand in the Great Salt Lake Desert with a helicopter and a drone to be able to make as much reality there as possible.
MOTEN: So, I don’t know if you remember this moment, but we were sitting there working on some of the dialogue of that scene, and it was, at one point, I think, we were rehearsing, and it was one thing — and then the elements started playing, and the film cameras were on the set with us, and you were like, ‘Oh, yeah, that’s great. Make sure you keep doing that with your voice.’ It was because, instantly, I realized, ‘Oh, it’s loud.’ You feel it in a weird way, the element ripping by you, the open door of the helicopter. You instantly kind of go there in your imagination. It influences the performance, even though it’s not really happening to you. It feels real.
NOLAN: For that scene, we benchmarked all photography on Full Metal Jacket. There’s a terrific scene where they’re inside of a Huey. If we could have built a Vertibird, we would have a working Vertibird. We built most of it, but it was just trying to claw back as much reality as you absolutely can, and try to let the audience feel that. But yeah, it was that level of the projection you have to do when you’re actually in a helicopter with doors open. I’ve been there. It’s pretty extreme.
MOTEN: I have a weird question for Jonah. It’s a nerdy one. It’s about film cameras, working with film cameras as a director, and very specifically, metering in the dark. I’m thinking specifically about the entrance of Walton’s character into the wasteland. It’s so dark. What do you do?
NOLAN: The final scene in the first one? That’s a good example. I think of the first two episodes kind of as a two-part pilot, and that’s sort of what I had signed up to shoot, and then when I was having so much fun, I just kept shooting again, going to third episode. We should talk about you acting more than this stuff [Laughs]. I have, whether it was Paul Cameron on Westworld…or Stuart Dryburgh, who shot these episodes with us, always had this argument about how you shoot nights, and always tried to turn as many lights off as possible.
One of the few advantages of the digital cameras is that they do have very good low light sensitivity. But I would argue, if you properly light the set, you’re still getting better color reproduction off the film. So I finally got my wish, if you watch those two episode — and it bothered me aa little bit just going through and grading everything, because I finally got my wish when we were in Utah. It’s the scene in the second episode in which Ella’s character interacts with Michael Emerson. We always joke about how we never shoot night stuff on location. It’s such a waste of everyone’s time. It’s also very difficult to get a Condor and the requisite light package to shoot properly at night. You could do that with VFX after the fact. It’s kind of a silly waste of everyone’s time, and you want to maximize your daylight shooting hours. You never want to put the crew into a split so you’re losing your daylight hours. But we did the last night we were in Utah. We’re shooting a window on this old Air Force Base, which is mostly Aaron’s scenes there.
But we did have this one cool location with an abandoned swimming pool [at a] World War II air base that had just been left to rot. Howard did some tasteful touches to it, but it’s largely as we found it. And we shot a scene with Ella and Michael, where we convinced each other to go ahead and shoot it without any backlight. And, you know, luckily, we got a couple establishing shots at dusk, as she’s kind of setting up the campfire and singing a little song to herself, because you can’t see it. Be careful what you wish for. So then, we actually shot that out of sequence. We went and shot the introduction of the ghoul later. And at that point, both Stuart and I were like, ‘Let’s have some lights on this one.’ So it’s a different approach. Shooting nights is deliciously fun but so complicated that there is such a pressure on the DP to make sure that there is a usable image.
I learned a lot from Paul, I learned a lot from Stuart, in terms of how to try to evoke that, but still taking advantage of the location. The location where we shot that scene with Walton is this incredible location down by the establishing shot, where they kind of pull up and shoot the guy with the baby foot, and he falls. It’s all one location. It feels different, because we shot dusk into night, but it’s this incredible fort or something down the water in Queens, I think. Incredible location. But again, you turn the lights out and it kind of disappears a little bit. I think largely you want to shoot those locations during the day, where you can. It’s a little wimpy.
DEADLINE: How much do you take into account how people are watching your show? Because certain TVs also just can’t handle those really dark shots.
NOLAN: I remember having a conversation at one point with an executive, who I love, who called up — it was on my first show — and said. ‘Last night’s episode was a little dark.’ And I was like, ‘Let me guess, do you have DirectTV? Yes. ‘Do you have an edge lit LED television?’ She’s like, ‘How’d you know?’ If I could buy everyone in the world an old school, plasma television, that’s where you’re gonna get your best nighttime stuff.
DEADLINE: I want to shift gears a bit to ask about casting, specifically for Ella and Aaron. Jonathan, you along with Graham Wagner and Geneva Robertson-Dworet really developed these characters from scratch, so what were you looking for in these actors to bring them to life and fit into this world?
NOLAN: I think one of the early quandaries with this series was the role playing game aspect of it. In the games, you design your own character. Lisa [Joy] was not familiar with Fallout, and we sat down to play when we were developing the project. You’re gonna spend, like, an hour creating your own character. Does it look like you? Look like someone else? There’s so much fun to be had there. But the point is, there is no protagonist. The protagonist is a literal every person. You can make that person whatever you want them to be. It was hard for us, because everyone’s experience of any Fallout game is totally different. You might play it as a really good person. I might play as a really bad person.
DEADLINE: This is as opposed to other video games, where every person is having a relatively similar experience because there’s a narrative through-line that you can’t change based on your actions.
NOLAN: The point of the game is that everyone’s experiences is totally different. So we knew from the beginning with Geneva and Graham, our showrunners, that whatever story we wanted to tell, we’d have to find a different way into it. But early on, they landed on this idea of an ensemble, which to us, was a brilliant solve, because the other thing in the Fallout games is there are all these factions. You decide to join them or not, and that shapes your experience. So we were able to have three characters with very different backgrounds and stories who, roughly, equate the different experiences you could have playing the game. There was Lucy, the vault dweller, who roughly relates to the kind of newbie first time player, who’s constantly choosing the virtuous dialogue choices. You have the ghoul, who is fully living the nihilistic bad guy choices.
MOTEN: They’ve already put in like 400 hours of gameplay.
NOLAN: [Laughs]. Yeah, exactly. Fully 100 level on every characteristic, all the best weapons. Then, you’ve got Aaron’s character. In many ways, for me, Aaron’s character is my way into the narrative, because he’s somewhere in between, making these decisions and trying to figure out, what’s the best way to stay alive. All three of these roles were hugely important for me. Aaron has this enormously difficult challenge. Looking at the early drafts of the character and saying, ‘Do we like this character?’ Knowing, as we’re saying that, you can tilt it whichever way you want. Who we cast is going to largely dictate your emotional response to this person and that is important. It’s obviously all important. It’s on the page, but it’s even more important to be cast. I wasn’t familiar with Aaron’s work before. This was genuinely a case of interacting with someone, talking to someone, and then going and investigating and watching all the things they’ve done before. I think very early on, feeling like Aaron had this incredible quality of both being very emotionally knowable to the audience — that amazing gift to be able to transmit emotion to you — but also this unknowable quality to you. It is very hard to have both these things happening at the same time. There is a technical dexterity there that is really, really challenging. I think you make it look effortless in the show. I’m not sure people even understand what you’re doing in the show, like the levels of effort that are going into it, because you do it so well, and it feels so naturalistic.
That’s one of the amazing things about my job, is to get a chance to work with an actor with whom I have no shorthand, no memory, and we start from the beginning. I think that Aaron’s performance in this series is astonishing in so many places, carrying this interactive quality of the games, this feeling that at any given moment you could go this way or that way, impossible to do in a series. We have to make decisions. Graham and Geneva have made decisions about where this character is going. You’re making decisions about how the character is responding in those moments to the things that seem to make enormous difference in terms of when the audience feels it. But there is that sense of ambiguity in your performance, that sense of unknowability that is always present and always makes me feel when I’m watching Aaron’s performance, like I’m standing the edge of a cliff, and I don’t know if I’m going to jump or not. If that makes sense.
MOTEN: I know that there’s a method to get myself from where I start my day to where we have to get to. I mean, 250 of us on set to sacrifice and make the thing good. We have to get it. But I just know that it’s all because I felt like I was given the space to start from where I was in a day and, also, listen to my scene partners. I felt always surrounded by incredible collaborators in this show. And I always felt like, having a leader like Jonah, it’s like having a conductor of the orchestra who’s played every instrument a little bit. He knows how to talk to each department.
NOLAN: Or, pretends he’s played. That’s the key part.
MOTEN: Especially this show, the tone shifts. Whatever we’re playing with, it’s always about throwing work away and responding to what’s happening right in front of you in a way that will make everything, I think, for a camera, real. It’s part of a horrible logic. I understand actors showing up knowing, ‘This is my big, dramatic scene.’ It’s kind of the logic of it. It makes sense to me, but usually those are the thoughts that take us out of the circumstances that are right in front of us. I think we all recognize the difference between seeing an actor in the control room versus seeing something happening and being discovered in a moment. It’s just always going to ring to me as real and exciting to watch. So I was just happy this was a collection of amazing collaborators, and we were all ready to take that journey with this piece.
NOLAN: We shot all over the world with this, which was a delight. I do like a little bit of that. I’m not a controlled chaos person, but I think it is fun for all of us to be out in the middle of the back end of beyond [to], I think, open people up a tiny little bit. I don’t think it was figured out that plane for your interrogation in the first episode was the Conair plane. For some reason the Conair plane is stored at Wendover Airport. It was perfect, sitting in that Conair plane. It was a really well written scene. I would watch take after take of what Aaron was doing there, and there’s genuinely some moments of feeling a dangerousness there. You’re conjuring things.
I’ve had the privilege of my career of working with people who can be fully intense in the moment, turn it off and start twerking, and then folks who are so present in that, that there’s a bit of an emotional quarantine, or sort of a buffer that you need to build around the set to make sure that there’s room, in my experience. This approach works for everyone — even if it’s a giant machine, build a small, intimate, safe set. Just create calm, and still listen and allow you to play it. But there is something very special about getting into these takes, where I don’t know where Aaron’s going to take it. We had a conversation, and maybe there’s been a helpful suggestion, but an actor like Aaron, who is so thoughtful, and I don’t mean that in the way that there’s thought going into it, but there’s just a natural thoughtfulness to your performance, so that when we’re watching it, there are different ideas popping in different moments and different things that are happening. It’s such a joy as a director to get to to stare through the camera and see all this magical stuff happening.
DEADLINE: Fallout has been renewed, and of course the finale very much sets up for another season. But, how early in the process do you start thinking about another season? And do those ideas change when you see Aaron and Ella fully embody their roles?
NOLAN: Yeah, I think this is one of the fun things about television. My career started for the first 10 years in film, and then I was watching what my wife Lisa, the experience she was having in television and thinking, ‘Wow, that looks like a lot of fun.’ I think one of the things that’s important with film [is] you can chart the path. But on a franchise, like the Batman movies that I made with my brother, you had a sense for where you’re going. You’d have to pivot if things didn’t go the way that you hoped. I think with television, there’s a wonderful feedback loop of Graham and Geneva. Graham will try something, we’ll see what’s coming back to us. There’s the ability, I think, to be too much of a control freak and say, ‘This is the plan that we had.’ In television, you’d be foolish to think that’s how it’s going to work out. Companies get bought and sold. All kinds of things. Tectonic shifts happen in the industry. You have to be ready to pivot. You have to be ready to pivot your story, wrap things up quicker, extend things go to different places. So, you have to have a certain amount of flexibility. You have to have some ambitions. You have to have some plans. At the same time, I think the audience will feel if you’re just literally making up week to week to week. You have to go into it with something to a plan.
So it’s a little like life in that way, you have some ambitions for places you want to go, and you have to be able to be open to the experience of it. One of the most delightful things to me about every series I’ve worked on is that you will have — whether it’s an impulse that an actor follows in a scene that creates a whole new story opportunity, or whether it’s an actor you cast for one episode who suddenly develops a character that you just can’t let go of — I’ve had both experiences, and that is, honestly in many ways, the best experience in making a series, where you’re surprised by things that happen, that bubble up organically and create these possibilities, and then that really starts to feel like you’re in this living universe.
DEADLINE: Aaron, I’ve known actors on both sides of this spectrum, and I’m curious…are you the type of actor who, once you are familiar with the character, you have lots of ideas for where their story should go, or are you more hands-off, let the writers do their thing?
MOTEN: Anytime I come with a suggestion, it’s a joke. For me, to really pay homage to what this is, which is, I think, a very a special grouping of people, and what Graham and Geneva are doing in the writers room is really special. It’s really different. I want the same feeling that I had when I saw the first three scripts…before I even did a deep dive on what Fallout was, I mean, it was, ‘Who came up with this? How are they writing this?’ Learning later that this is the tone of Fallout. You know what? But it really felt like they have their fingers on the pulse of this thing. [I’m] really trusting that if there’s ever something that feels strange to me, that I would maybe ask them more questions about it, because I really like the material that they’re coming out with. I think we spend a lot of time watching stories where people in Maximus’ position are mostly forced to be, I think, quite stoic, quite tough. It’s just been a joy, a thrill to me, to play someone that I find much more realistic. He’s just as brave as he is afraid of the thing. He’s going to walk into the cave, even though the suit is forcing him to. He’s going to do these things, but he’s not going to do it without letting you know, like, ‘Hey, like you don’t want the armor on.’ It always just feels real. And, of course, also Graham and Geneva, speaking of the suit, we spend time subverting things in the show in a way that is just so exciting. The characters are going to continue to develop in a way that we maybe won’t recognize in the future, and I think it’s going to be exciting to keep changing and growing and developing.
DEADLINE: Aaron, you also took some BTS photos on set, right?
MOTEN: I have this great photo of Govey in Namibia, it’s when we were leaving. I believe it became part of our Vault 4 set in Namibia.
NOLAN: Oh yeah, that odd building. Govey is Chris Haarhoff, our long-time Steadicam operator, one of the best Steadicam operators in the world.
MOTEN: When did you guys meet?
NOLAN: Westworld pilot. He worked with Paul before. So Paul and Govey came as a pack. I don’t know if you met Paul. Paul spent a little bit of time on this show, helping dial in The Volume, he’s directing now. I am very reliant on our Steadicam operator. It’s a tool that I love. We shoot very quickly. To get to that scope, that movie scope, in an episodic schedule, means I come to set with my shoes tied on and we’re going. We’re moving as quickly as we can. And someone like Govey, Chris, really facilitates that, because instead of having to do a dolly shot and another and another and another…we can use Govey to build out a shot that tells you the whole story in one setup sometimes.
MOTEN: Yeah, I bring him up because I mean, this experience with Jonah [and] the amazing people that he’s brought on to this project to work with…Govey used to do this really funny thing to me, and what he’s doing is like relieving tension, I believe in his neck, because he’s holding the camera and supporting the weight of it. But a couple of times I thought in the middle of something I was doing, he was shaking his head, I’d be thinking he’s telling me it’s the other eyeline. It wasn’t until I asked him, he was like, ‘Oh no.’
NOLAN: He’s wearing 90 pounds of film equipment. He’s just trying not to have a stress headache. Oh, that’s amazing. Have you ever worn that rig?
MOTEN: No.
NOLAN: I put it on at the end of the second season of Westworld. I don’t know how that guy does what he does. Oh my god. The slightest movement you make, and the camera just starts getting away from you. It is very heavy…It’s a workout. I think what is one of the pleasures of my job is to work with these incredibly talented artists and get a chance, sometimes, to sit by the camera just watch, whether it’s Aaron giving us this incredibly nuanced performance, or Govey with this incredible shot that’s developing, just watch these incredible, incredible people do incredible work.
DEADLINE: Aaron, what inspired you to take these BTS photos? I really enjoyed how they made the project feel very down to earth, despite its scope and scale.
MOTEN: It’s so many moving pieces. One of my favorites is [to Nolan], you’re with Steve [Battaglia]. You guys are trying to set a shot up. I stooped down enough so that I could get Johnny Pemberton in the background in his all black and an umbrella trying to hide from the sun, sort of like Utah mountains in the background. Like Jonah is talking about it, putting us in these places all together, shooting on location as a group, it really puts us all on our toes in a way where we’re really excited about the material that we’re we’re filming.
NOLAN: But do this long enough to know that it’s not important that you have a great time making something. It’s not really important that you come away being friends with everyone. That’s not really the job. But we did have a great time making this thing. We did come away friends. It’s just kind of hard not to, I think with the tone of the show.
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