Yahoo Lifestyle ‘Severance’ Bombshell: Ben Stiller Unpacks That Episode 4 Twist and Why It’s a ‘Gut Punch’
SPOILER ALERT: This story contains spoilers for Season 2, Episode 4 of “Severance,” streaming now on Apple TV+.
In the latest episode of “Severance,” the innies go outside.
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Transported into a vast, icy woodland, Mark (Adam Scott), Helly (Britt Lower), Dylan (Zach Cherry) and Irving (John Turturro) have been sent by Lumon (with their outies’ permission) on an ORTBO — that is, an Outdoor Retreat Team Building Occurrence. With the threatening instruction from Mr. Milchick (Tramell Tillman), the innies embark on a scavenger hunt across the Dieter Eagan National Forest to find a secret text by Lumon founder Kier Eagan. (The text reveals that Kier had a twin brother who died quite dramatically — perhaps a bit of foreshadowing?)
After a long day of traversing, tensions rise at the campfire. Irving interrogates Helly to reveal what she saw during the OTC, and he lashes out at Mark for blindly defending her. Helly fires back, calling Irv “lonely” because he — or at least his innie — won’t get to see Burt (Christopher Walken) again. After things come to a head, the innies retreat to their respective tents, and Mark pays Helly a visit. They kiss, which escalates to sex, and Mark (who, in the last episode, began the reintegration process) sees a flash of Gemma ripple across Helly’s face.
Meanwhile, Irving spent the night venturing off on his own, falling asleep in the forest with terrifying hallucinations. The next morning, Helly strolls toward Woe’s Hollow, the waterfall area where Dieter suffered his operatic demise. There, Irving confronts her: “What you said to me last night — it was cruel. Helly was never cruel.” He pieces it together. Helly is not Helly, and who, other than an Eagan, would have the power to send their outie to the severed floor? “She’s been an outie the whole time!” Irv screams as he holds Helly’s — well, Helena’s — head under the water. Just before he is about to kill her, Milchick picks up his walkie talkie and demands, “Remove the Glasgow Block now.”
Helena warps back into Helly — for the first time since the end of Season 1 — and Milchick tells Irving that he is permanently dismissed, effective immediately. With a smirk on his face, Irving is instructed to walk into the forest. He steals one last glance at his co-workers and waits for “Kier’s mercy.” His innie is dead.
While some fans had theorized since the beginning of the season that Helly was actually Helena, Irving’s termination could not have been predicted. “That, I’m hoping, is the fun surprise for people who did figure out it was Helena,” Ben Stiller, who directed the episode, tells Variety. “They’re vindicated, but then the next second there’s a gut punch — we just lost Irving.”
Below, Stiller, who also executive produces “Severance,” broke down the bombshell episode and hints at what might come next.
When did it become apparent that you wanted to do a totally bonkers episode like this, which feels like it takes place on another planet?
Very early on we had the idea of a corporate retreat episode. What would Lumon’s version of a corporate retreat be? It was one of the first ideas on the board for Season 2. I hoped that the episode would be really visual. Originally, we were thinking there would be hardly any dialogue, and be more about the weirdness of this world, because the innies are experiencing the outside world for the first time, in an extended period of time. There’s also the idea that Milchick would want to convey that the world can be a scary place. “You guys did the OTC. You want to see the outside world? This is it!” So we came up with a way that Lumon would try to freak them out. It was fun, tonally, to figure out how far we could go.
Where did you film it?
We filmed it in Upstate New York, around Lake Minnewaska and Peterskill, and another place called Sam’s Point near the Shawangunk Mountains. It was six weeks of us up there, doing just that episode. We got lucky because we needed snow, and we got real snowfall a few times. That scene where they find the dead seal — it was only snowing for four hours that morning, and we got to shoot that whole scene in that time, which is really lucky.
You introduce a whole bunch of Eagan lore in this episode. Do you have a bible to keep track of the canon?
It’s all from Dan Erickson, of course. We don’t have a handbook or bible, but Dan has it all written out.
How elastic is that lore?
Sometimes our storytelling will be elastic — how we tell the story, or certain moves that we make — but it’s not like we are retrofitting the lore in that way. It all goes back to the idea behind this religion with Kier, which we haven’t really revealed yet. These ideas will be paid off further down the line.
What should we be drawing from Lumon’s obsession with likeness? This episode introduces the concept that Kier Eagan had a twin. There are creepy 3D avatars that guide the innies, there are balloons adorned with Mark’s face…
The idea of the twin is an interesting theme in the show, obviously with the innies and outies. But the likeness thing is interesting. Honestly, I’ve never really thought of it that way. The things that Lumon gives the innies are all they have. So, your face on a balloon is the way an innie can be celebrated. The most significant way is to have your own image replicated, because they’re not on TikTok or getting TV or any other images, besides the paintings on the walls. If I had to analyze it — which I’m doing now for the first time — seeing yourself in Kier and being celebrated in that way takes on an importance because there are very few images they get to see down there.
Let’s talk about the Helly twist. Dropping subtle hints that she might actually be Helena, while also keeping her identity a mystery for four episodes, is quite the tightrope walk.
That’s been one of the interesting things to experience with the audience, and to see the people who were immediately all over it, and the debate about it. I don’t know what percentage of people thought it was Helena versus Helly, but there were a lot of people talking about it. For us, we made the show in a bubble, so we didn’t know how people were going to react. I was surprised at how on it people were, and how much debate it inspired. In terms of the story and in the editing, it was about finding those moments where, if you go back and watch it, it becomes more clear. But there were a lot of people who saw the twist the first time around, which is OK. It’s not something that necessarily has to be a secret from the audience. For the story, we had to figure out when the characters would figure it out. And if some of the audience is ahead of them, that’s OK. Maybe Irving is ahead of the audience, but Mark’s not ahead of them.
Mark knows Helly better than anyone. Why did he fail to notice it wasn’t her all along?
Because of his feelings for Helly and his connection to her, and maybe not having the most objective point of view, it made sense to me that he might not see that.
How did you direct Britt Lower to straddle that line of Helena pretending to be Helly?
That was a fun thing to look at for every single scene for Britt. There’s one moment in the tent with Irving where Irving is saying, “What did you see?” He’s pushing her, and she’s like, “Irving…” and her face drops for a second, and it becomes very Helena. There was a discussion about that moment. For me, even if some people are like, “Well, that’s definitely Helena” at that moment, that’s fine because it’s such an interesting, great character moment for Britt. I found it so chilling the way she did that. But also, you’re guessing! You don’t know what the audience is going to think. So, you go with your gut feeling and take a chance. That’s how we make the whole show.
It didn’t hit me until later that we haven’t seen Helly this entire season. What does that mean for the show and for the other characters?
It’s a big deal! After Episode 4 we’ve got Helly, who knows nothing about anything that’s happened in the first four episodes. That was a storytelling challenge, to figure out how to get her up to speed, and how Mark and Dylan would react to her after this happened. What would be the lasting effects of this betrayal from Helena, and how does that seep into how the characters feel about Helly?
Speaking of storytelling challenges, it’s an extreme measure to terminate Irving’s innie. Were you nervous about essentially eliminating a character so early on?
No. With the Helena undercover storyline, I’m hoping that what audiences won’t see coming as much is that they get the satisfaction of learning that Helly was Helena, but the next moment Irving is gone. He pays the price for figuring it out, and I hope that’s affecting to the audience. I also think it’s earned, because he was trying to drown Helena Eagan. That, I’m hoping, is the fun surprise for people who did figure out it was Helena. They’re vindicated, but then the next second there’s a gut punch — we just lost Irving.
What are we to imply happens to Irving, in a literal sense, when the episode cuts to black?
It’s why Milchick says, “Walk into the forest.” There’s probably someone who comes to get him, and he’s driven away somewhere, and his outie is informed that he’s been let go. That’s why he’s forced to walk away from them. He’s ushered out.
Why is it Helena who makes the masturbation joke? Is she trying to blend in as Helly, or is there a legitimate sense of anger toward her family?
Oh, that’s interesting. I never thought of it consciously. I always thought she was trying to be Helly, and thinking this is how rebellious Helly would react. But that’s an interesting idea that she would have subconscious feelings about her family. What’s interesting is in this episode, Helena connects with Mark in a very intimate way — they make love. She feels something, I’m sure. It’s changed her as much as it’s going to change everybody else when they realize it was her.
This episode explores the concept of body autonomy in a sexual context, which is fascinating. On a corporal level, it’s two people having sex. But what’s really happening is quite different, with layers of manipulation and invasiveness.
We always try to go to places in the story that would be unique to the premise, but at the same time resonate with people in a nonliteral way. The question of who — the innie or the outie — has the right to Helly’s body is a perplexing question that they’re probably arguing about in the halls of Congress in the world of our show.
Speaking of Congress, how do you view the broader political climate surrounding the severance procedure within the show’s universe? In Episode 2, we get a sense of the prejudice that some people have against severed people.
We also hint at it in Season 1, with the state senator. Obviously, there is a debate going on. We see the talking heads on the TV. It’s interesting to see how the world is dealing with this concept. Lumon, in the universe of the show, is a for-profit corporation, and you get the sense that they’re a business that the severance chip is a part of. The severance procedure is not totally accepted, but it seems like it’s gaining some traction. But in Season 1 you get the Whole Mind Collective, and in Season 2 you get the feeling that there are still people who look down on it. So, it’s somewhat controversial.
There’s an interesting and, I assume, intentional piece of mixed messaging in regards to the peoplehood of innies. In Season 1, Helena denies Helly’s resignation request by saying “I am a person. You are not.” But in her public apology video after the OTC, Helena ends by saying, “I am human. Just like my innie.” What is Lumon’s stance on whether innies are, in fact, people?
Her outward-facing message is different than what she’s saying to her innie, for sure. It’s an interesting question that we look at with [current Lumon CEO and Helena’s father] Jame Eagan, and his feeling about what he has created. There’s a lack of truthfulness that is definitely part of what goes on in this corporation. But I think it’s a deeper question of how Jame and the Eagan family feel about the severance procedure. I have my own feelings about it, and I don’t want to put them on other people. In my mind, there is some justification that goes on in their heads to rationalize what they are doing. While the outward-facing PR version might be that they are people, based on what they’re actually doing down there on the Testing Floor they have to somehow rationalize that the innies are less than human. That’s something that can resonate, not in a literal way, with what’s going on and what has gone on in the history of the world.
“Severance” takes place in a modern timeline — the characters have cell phones, for example. But all of the cars are from the 1970s and ‘80s. Does every aesthetic choice have a deeper meaning?
I don’t want to answer questions like that too specifically. I’m not going to say anything about the cars. There are so many aesthetic choices that are in the show. Based on the level of scrutiny that fans have, the reality is that there is not necessarily a clue in every single thing that people are looking for a clue in. But there might be clues in a lot of the aesthetic choices in the show that do relate to the story. We have thought this thing out, but I’m being totally honest when I say it’s impossible that every single little thing that people see has a meaning. I’m not going to say we’re geniuses and every single thing [has meaning], like this doorknob or whatever. But it is something we’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. And there is a reason why the show looks the way it does, and hopefully that’ll pay off for people. I don’t think there’s a good answer for that, because either way you cut off some possibilities for what people think. We’re trying our best!
This is more of a logistical question about promoting a TV show, but how do you keep everything a secret? You have large crews, you send screeners to a bunch of people, things leak all the time online. What types of protocols are in place to preserve the mystery? Or is that not something you’re too worried about?
There’s something called the severance procedure, and we’ve introduced our crew to it. No — I do worry about it! In this day and age, it’s really hard, especially sitting on episodes for a year and a half that you’ve completed. I’m concerned because the only currency we have with our show is the excitement of the surprises, and you can’t control if somebody’s going to put something out there. So, we are very thorough. It’s a testament to the people who work on the show and really care about the show. They’ve been working on this thing for a long time, and they get what we could lose by leaking stuff.
It’s sometimes hard for the cast because they get asked questions, and they want to answer the questions. It’s hard to even know sometimes what is a spoiler and what isn’t. I’ll be approving publicity stills or unit photography, and I have to rely on the fact that Apple won’t release a unit picture from Episode 5 by accident for a magazine story before it comes out. I even wrestled with the picture from Episode 4 of the four of them outside, which we gave to Vanity Fair. I was like, “Oh, I wish we didn’t do that.” But the other side of the coin is we wanted more people to see the show, and you have to give them a sense of what the show is to get an audience. That goes back to comedy trailers — how many jokes do you want to give away? You want to get people to come to the movies, so you’ve got to get the jokes in there. But you give away all of the jokes and then they’ve seen them already. It’s always a constant push and pull. “Severance” is more complicated than anything I’ve ever been a part of, but gratefully we’ve done pretty well up to now. I’ll breathe a sigh of relief after Episode 10 is over.
At this point, what do you view as the show’s biggest overarching questions? Where are you trying to get to?
For me, it always comes back to the character arc and the emotional stories. Mark is dealing with the information that he has both on the inside and the outside that Gemma is alive. Is he going to be able to find her?
Where are we on Season 3? I know stuff is planned, story-wise, but are you blocking off dates for production?
Yeah, we’re in that process. I think there’s going to be more information soon about what we’re doing. But we’re in process.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
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